Penny for your thoughts, Jim Leyland
Posted by John Autin on October 15, 2011
Are Joaquin Benoit, Jose Valverde and Al Alburquerque all hurt?
There can be no other excuse for Jim Leyland bringing Brad Penny into game 6, in the 6th inning, trailing by 6.
Max Scherzer, Daniel Schlereth, Rick Porcello and Ryan Perry had already pitched. Benoit, Valverde and Alburquerque have not.
Brad Penny is a bad pitcher. Over the past 3 years, he has a 5.11 ERA and 83 ERA+. I'll spare you the rest of the stat parade; Penny stinks.
And he's pitching in a situation in which Detroit has better alternatives, and cannot afford to allow any more runs.
I like Jim Leyland, and in the long run it probably makes no difference. But it feels crappy as a fan to see your team go down without at least giving its best effort.
Penny gave up two runs while I was typing this.
Inexcusable. Inexcusable. Inexcusable. Jim Leyland must be fired.
October 15th, 2011 at 10:43 pm
And then he gave up another while I read it......
October 15th, 2011 at 10:50 pm
I'm sure I'll get over it, but right now the disgusting sight of Brad (3.7 SO/9) Penny giving up 2 runs obliterates every good feeling I got from following Detroit this year.
I'm beside myself with anger and bewilderment.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
Just pull the team off the field if you don't intend to compete.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:03 pm
I've always liked Jim Leyland, without forming a strong opinion of him as a game manager one way or the other. But I don't think I'll ever be able to root for him again.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:04 pm
Have any of the announcers mentioned the fact that Brad Penny is a terrible pitcher, and he's pitching in a do-or-die game when there are a number of infinitely better alternatives?
I've been too upset to really listen, but if they haven't raised this issue, they are irredeemably incompetent.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:05 pm
Walk off the field. Forfeit the game. Absurd, ridiculous, embarrassing. I renounce the Detroit Tigers for as long as Jim Leyland manages them.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:10 pm
"Have any of the announcers mentioned the fact that Brad Penny is a terrible pitcher, and he's pitching in a do-or-die game when there are a number of infinitely better alternatives?"
Nope, nor have they questioned any of the decisions that Leyland has made in this elimination game.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
I can't remember when I've felt so simultaneously embarrassed and outraged as a sports fan. I don't even want to hear Leyland's explanation. There cannot be any justification for bringing Brad Penny into this game.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Ha. 🙂
October 15th, 2011 at 11:19 pm
I know, I know, I know -- already down 6 runs, with only 3 at-bats left, the odds had to be at least 100-1 against Detroit coming back. And even if they had pulled off that miracle, they'd still have to win another game in Texas.
I still want that 1 chance. And I don't want to see my team get, in essence, humiliated by their manager's insistence on using the worst pitcher on any postseason roster ... and keeping him in for a 2nd inning after giving up 2 runs in his first.
I really have to sign off now and go get drunk or something. Talking about it isn't helping.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:22 pm
I feel like Penny is in there to consume innings, not prevent runs, which sounds really odd. Or Leyland is holding on Valverde's in the odd opportunity he has a save opportunity...
October 15th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
I wonder if this will be the first 10-run postseason loss by a team that hit 4 HRs.*
* While not actually trying to, you know, win the game.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Is it possible Leyland just threw in the towel?
October 15th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
Yeah, maybe Leyland just wanted to give his fans a break from having to watch the last few innings. I'm sure some Tigers fans turned it off the second Penny came in the game.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
I'm not a fan either way but it was pretty clear that was the white flag. Once the Rangers came back as soon as Detroit acted like scoring because Jackson and Raburn ran into each other then the infield played a bunt liked the bad news bears I could hear him say F this. Then Pennt came in and I was sure. He obviously has no respect for Penny and wanted to give him one last ass whipping before his enforced retirement.
It was like bringing in Linebrink for Braves fans except Fredi thought it was a good idea.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:52 pm
Is it appropriate for a manager to wave a white flag when behind by 6 runs with 3 at-bats left?
October 15th, 2011 at 11:55 pm
John A, didn't we just have this discussion, except Joe Girardi was the manager? Maybe they both had neurons misfire?
Cheer up, you could be a Red Sox fan right now....
October 15th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
@16, JA, nope, it's not. Tampa pulled off a comeback just a few weeks ago. You don't give up
October 16th, 2011 at 12:00 am
Didn't say it was appropriate and Leyland just said it didn't happen but sitting on the outside it sure looked that way. Tigers's defense was awful and tonight no pitcher was any good. It happens. I wouldn't have done it but maybe Valverda and Benoit were hurt. He used everything else
October 16th, 2011 at 12:15 am
Sorry, JA.
October 16th, 2011 at 12:22 am
Thanks, Zachary.
It's a lot more bearable now that the game is actually over.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:32 am
Leyland concluded his Tigers were totally overmatched; I agree, it makes sense he threw in the towel. Justin Verlander was his main advantage, Doug Fister, good, but the Rangers held the trump card almost every where else.
The season as a whole was an unexpected success. They finished 6 wins above their pythag projection despite putting out a less-than-league-average starter about 3-4 season. Credit Leyland for this one, even if they had a great bullpen (Not blowing saves helps) and strong lineup.
He must not like Brad Penny (unless I am mistaken about that) and wanted to see what he would get out of him for three outs. You're right, JA, he is a terrible pitcher now, and this last outing would have make it easy for DD get rid of him.
October 16th, 2011 at 2:08 am
Jim Leyland's conduct during the Galarraga affair was simply horrible. I have hated him since then.
Well, Jim, your umpire ass-kissing didn't work. The first base umpire missed a crucial call, from which the unraveling of this game began.
It seems the umpires decided they can screw Leyland whenever they feel like it since he wants to go to hall of fame and will not fight any calls made in their whim. Serves Leyland right.
October 16th, 2011 at 2:13 am
@23
Yeah, there are no managers in the hall of fame that have ever argued a call....
October 16th, 2011 at 2:22 am
Just was reminded this morning how in 72 Rollie Fingers came into WS games in the 5th and 6th innings. If Leyland had tried that with Valverde, Joe Buck and Tim McCarver would have both dropped dead with shock and Fox would have been forced to stop ruining games with dead pan play by play and the smarmy insights we've all heard since Deion had his bucket of water.
October 16th, 2011 at 4:50 am
I cannot believe the idiocy I am reading here from people who, yesterday, were Tigers/Jim Leyland fans. You lost!!!! That's it. Texas played better this time of year this year. Please just enjoy the year you had and move on. Jim Leyland has been the best thing the Tigers have had in years. Freaking years. The attitude used to be "Just wait until next year." True baseball fans still feel that way. The bandwagoners will complain and spout childishness.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:36 am
I am suspicious of the Leyland venom spewing. Sending a starter out to the mound in relief, is a sign of NOT giving up. It is a sign that you are willing to pull out all the stops. I think you might be trying to downplay the great effort by Texas and one Mike Young. It was great to see the Rangers win, I have been banging the Rangers drum all season and it was great to see my good friend George W. at the game. I think Ron Washington is an excellent manager and probably is the polar opposite of Tony LaRussa. It's going to be a great WS, Texas and St. Louis. I would give the early edge to the Cards, but anything could happen. I predict 7 games.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:50 am
"Sending a starter out to the mound in relief, is a sign of NOT giving up. It is a sign that you are willing to pull out all the stops."
There is no chance on this planet that Brad Penny would be receiving anything resembling a start in this post season. He was not a starter, he was blowout (Tigers blowout) relief, or possibly game 1 fodder if they were down 10 runs. Make your best relievers go two innings each, best case scenario is that you'll have a tired bullpen for game 7, if not they've got 6 months to recover from it.
October 16th, 2011 at 8:27 am
This is a sign of conventional wisdom gone mad...
It is fairly common for managers to go to rested starters in the playoffs if they need relief help relatively early in the game. It is uncommon to bring in the late-inning specialists in the 6th inning. Since the Tigers were already down, and down big, doing the common thing helps Leyland ultimately avoid much criticism. This is because "common" is presumed to be "right". If you do the right thing and it doesn't work, well, at least you did the right thing. But do the uncommon thing, the "wrong" thing, and if that doesn't work... well, Mister, you just wrote your ticket out of town. If he brings in Benoit or Valverde and THEY give up 2 runs, everyone says, "What an idiot move! That is why you don't bring in your relievers there!"
This was a way of avoiding blame and accountability. You see these type of coaching tactics most often in the NFL, because there are far more decisions that coaches have to make, but they are pretty evident throughout sports and other areas of life. Do what is expected, even if it is more likely to lead to failure, and you'll generally receive less blame because most people presume they would do the same thing in the same situation.
October 16th, 2011 at 8:31 am
Wow, this is quite an interesting thread. If only John Austin were the Tigers manager, they would've won the last 6 or 7 World Series in a row. Damn that Jim Leyland! Everyone knows that some fan watching the games on tv could be a better manager than him. Please, if any Tigers executives are reading this, please hire John Austin IMMEDIATELY and you have guarnteed next year's championship!
October 16th, 2011 at 9:24 am
I feel your pain JA...
Leaving your best relievers on the bench, simply because you are trailing or the game is tied, is ridiculous (see Yankees 2003 WS or this year). We are not talking about game #30 of the season, or game #112. In the playoffs you have to put your best pitchers on the mound when you have the best chance... Not after waiting for a lead that may never come.
I give you credit for mentioning the same thing when Girardi did it against your Tigers this year. You gotta wonder what managers are thinking sometimes.
In poker you get your money in when you have the best hand.
October 16th, 2011 at 9:47 am
26-27, C'mon guys, allow the grieving to bury their dead. Texas did outplay Detroit. The cause was probably hopeless after the third inning, but YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. And second guessing is certainly allowed. Personally, even though I'm not a Tiger fan I played armchair manager during the game, I would have gotten Fister throwing as soon as Scherzer got in trouble, no use keeping your second best pitcher for a game that isn't going to happen. And using Verlander on one days rest wouldn't have been out of the question either. If guys in the past like Hunter and Hershiser could do it, and even Lincecum last year, he certainly could have.
October 16th, 2011 at 9:58 am
Condolences, JA. You sound a lot like Red Sox Nation, in 2003. Since the player who actually lost the game (Wakefield) was a supremely respected player on the team, by teammates and fans alike, most Red Sox fans turned their ire on Grady Little's refusal to pull Pedro Martinez, who was clearly spent, in favor of the formula that had worked all postseason long. The most psychologically damaged Red Sox fans, when hearing the name "Grady Little", start staring off into space, rocking and muttering, "Timlin in the 8th, Williamson in the 9th... Timlin in the 8th, Williamson in the 9th..."
Regarding Penny... lol. I wasn't even aware he was still around. I had the amusing experience of witnessing, in person, his Fenway debut in a Red Sox uniform. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200904170.shtml) I'd never seen a Red Sox pitcher spot the visitors a touchdown before. And I'd certainly never felt a crowd react to it so casually. It was as if the entire crowd was thinking what I said to my wife, when I recited The Procrastinator's Creed: "The quicker you fall behind, the longer you have to catch up."
October 16th, 2011 at 10:09 am
@32. Agreed, Pauley: had I the opportunity to watch the game, I would have been saying the same that JA is saying now. Bringing out Penny with the season on the line seems ridiculous, if it's before the 23rd inning. (Seriously: the 23rd. Austin Jackson looks to have a pretty good arm. Worth a shot.)
After noting, in my previous post, Penny's less-than-spectcular Red Sox career, I notice Brad Penny's American League split, on his stat page. I don't think the Junior Circuit is his thing.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:38 am
As a diehard Tigers' fan, I support everything JA says in this thread. Every Tigers' fan I know was first guessing this move the second Jimmy made it. But at least Coke, Benny, and Papa will have an extra day of rest going into next spring training.
Also, some here seem to be twisting JA's words. He did not say that this decision lost the game. He merely said that this was a CLEARLY sub-optimal decision...one that turned a game from in-reach to a massive blowout.
Lastly, @27, if you think bringing in a starter is a sign of not giving up, then you didn't see this particular starter pitch this season. Because (though he was a semi-valuable innings eater), he consistently sucked.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:40 am
@30...yea, you really did not understand John's post at all.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:47 am
Jim Leyland rules.
Clue in, people. Sometimes teams just lose.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:55 am
Detroit was lucky to get as far as they did in the first place. Their 95 wins is overrated being that they reside in a division in which the other four teams all finished below .500. And it's easy to second guess the manager after the fact, but the reality is that aside from Benoit, the entire staff wasn't very good. Alburquerque's 13.50 ERA , Valverde's 7.36, and Coke's 8.31 suggest there's plenty of blame to go around. Verlander was a shell of his regular season self, while Fister and Scherzer, and Porcello all got hit hard.
October 16th, 2011 at 11:24 am
@38...I agree Detroit was a bit lucky to be playing as late as they did (they were brutally outscored in both postseason series). But I would not disparage those 95 wins.
Regarding the rest of the staff, yes, their playoff ERAs were high, but we have a full season (or multiple seasons in some cases) showing that those guys were MUCH better options than Penny.
Tigers' fans recognize that we were gonna we lose regardless. But we would rather go down throwing our best guys trying to keep it close, rather than throwing Penny and letting the game become a complete blowout.
October 16th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
JA,
Condolences. Idiot move.
Where was Penny vs the Yankees, though?
October 16th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Let's cut John A some slack here. lt just stinks to lose, and baseball is a long season, so many ups and downs, that if you make the playoffs you never know if or when you are going to be back, so you want to go out kicking and screaming. The other major sports have such lax playoff qualifications that a lot of the times, your team gets in and you know they aren't really good enough, so it's just a joy ride. But baseball is different, and for a manager to not go with their best is tough (I'm not forgiving Joe Girardi quite yet).
October 16th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Was Leyland's decision the reason the Tigers lost that game or that series? No. Not by a long shot. Still, you'd like to see your team play hard and well to the end. Either Leyland A) knew something all of us don't and hopefully will explain the thinking, B) made a bonehead move, or C) threw in the towel. It is frustrating to have a season end with a manager doing B or C.
October 16th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Leyland quote after the game:
"I really wanted to get Brad Penny in in the postseason."
Not sure of the context of that quote, but, on the surface, it doesn't sound like a good reason for pitching BP there.
October 16th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@John ... you can thank Cards mgmt for being smart enough not to re-sign Penny!
October 16th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Not sure what Leyland was thinking and i understand Tigers' fans frustrations. It seems like a questionable move to leave Penny out there but he must have had his reasons.
I might be comparing apples and oranges here, but
I also understand comments like #26 and #30, because as a Brewers fan, i'm extremely tired this week of hearing so many so-called Brewers fans shout about how lousy the Crew and their manager are, and how the team would be so much better if they were manager. Am i also a frustrated Brewers fan? Sure, but i'm also an optimist who has enjoyed the wonderful ride they've been on this season -- and am still hopeful they can pull it out!
So i've been forced to accept this reality about sports and fandom:
Some of us are sports fans because we like to second-guess everything that happens and empower ourselves by thinking we could do better. Ok, fine, i admit that's fun to a certain extent.
But others simply enjoy the game for entertainment (however nerve-wracking it may be at times) and accept the fact that our team cant win all the time, because the other team is trying hard to win too. I am obviously in the latter camp.
Good job Tigers on a successful 2011 season and a mostly valiant effort in the playoffs.
And Go Brewers Go!!!
October 16th, 2011 at 6:57 pm
Whoa! I'm sure there is reasons that will likely not be shared. Leyland just doesn't roll over.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:58 pm
Tiger fans, before you get bent all out of shape about Jim Leyland, you have to look at the big picture. Going into 2006, the Tigers had been really crappy for over a decade. Alan Trammell's crappy bumbling managing was keeping them in the cellar. But in Leyland's first year, he improved them from 71-91 to 95-67 and won a pennant. He's had 5 winning seasons out of 6.
So don't complain about Leyland. He's a good manager. So what if he puts in a meatball pitcher when they are already down by 6? Yeah, it was a dumb decision, but the leverage in that situation was so low that it really didn't affect their chances of winning that game very much.
If you're going to criticize him, then criticize him for the 2 extra-inning games that he blew and the other close game that he lost. I'm sure there were a lot of little decisions in those games that can be 2nd guessed. But the Penny decision was ultimately irrelevant.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:34 pm
Looks like the same thing happening tonight in Milwaukee. The commentators can't stop talking about the lack of top guns used by Milwaukee in the 6th down by 4 and instead throwing in what they called a mop up guy.
Didn't matter who was pitching though, the Brewers are fielding like a last place little league team.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:54 am
@47, Good point, John.
Something that can get lost in the translation is whether a second-guesser's "that was a bad move" necessarily translates to "this guy's a bad manager." For me personally, it doesn't. Baseball's great in that a high percentage of the manager's data is generally available to the fans, thanks to Sean and those who came before him and after him. It's very, very easy to have a difference of opinion regarding a single move.
To those who say, "I've watched the guy all season, and he's an idiot," I say, "Yeah... and every other baseball fan thinks the same of HIS manager." It's a lot easier to see the big picture in the visiting team's manager, and not get bogged down in individual decisions.
(That said, as a Red Sox watcher, I was never a fan of either Torre or Girardi. I'd go insane if they were running my team.)
October 17th, 2011 at 10:42 am
With the information I have available to me I wouldn't have used Penny in that situation but that doesn't make Leyland a bad manager or mean that he gave up. Maybe the pitching coach said his pitches seemed to be moving better (not that there was any evidence of this in his last start of the season that I could see) or he matched up well against some of the hitters or he had a gut feeling or the voices in his head told him to. I don't know. But he done a good job in his time in Detroit and I hope he sticks around for a few more years.
Nelson Cruz made Ron Washington look like a great manager and Jim Leyland look like a bad one. I'm pretty certain if they had traded places the outcome would have been the same.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
What is interesting with Leyland is how he is a genius even though he has a career sub-500 record for 3 of the 4 teams he has managed and finished in 5th place or worse at least once for each of the 4 teams. 1 World Series title, 6 times in the playoffs over 20 seasons. Kind of surprised as I figured he did better over the years than 3 games over 500.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
I don't understand the criticism at all. Penny was on the post season roster. If you think he's that useless, your complaint was with that decision. He's there to be used. You're down by 6 and you need a miracle to come back offensively, pitching aside. You put in a guy to soak up some innings just in case you score some runs. You expect probably something like 2 IP 1ER. Maybe he does really well. If he doesn't, you didn't really have any better options.
YES he had 3 other relief pitchers but he still needed to win the game, and the next game. He wasn't protecting a lead, he was trying to point a sinking ship back towards hope. Lets say the tigers score some runs, you think Penny's still out there? This whole thread is just short-thinking nonsense. You don't burn your bullpen down 6 runs and down 3-2 in the series. You use a starter and you hope for an offensive miracle. You need to win TWO games, not one.
Penny made the post season roster. If you didn't expect to see him pitch, you're an idiot. All players on a post season roster are likely going to play at some point in a series. Also, Penny is not the worst pitcher to make a post season roster, lighten up. You're not being fair to him either with these rants. He's not a quality starter but that doesn't mean he can't give you a couple innings.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
@52 -- I don't understand your lack of understanding. My point is crystal clear: Penny was the worst of several options available to pitch at that point in a must-win game. You fail to address the fundamental question: Why did Penny pitch the 6th and 7th innings?
"If you didn't expect to see him pitch, you're an idiot."
If you think every pitcher on every postseason roster pitches in every series, then you are ignorant of postseason history.
If there was any reason for Penny to be on the roster, it was as an innings-absorber in case of a blowout loss before the elimination game, or for a long extra-inning game. It's absurd to suggest, as you do, that his mere presence on the roster justifies using him in any situation whatsoever.
"he was trying to point a sinking ship back towards hope?" WTF does that even mean? You don't point toward hope by pinning your hopes on your worst player.
"You need to win 2 games, not 1." That's just the kind of brilliant thinking that leads managers to lose ordinary regular-season games in the 7th inning because they're not willing to use their best reliever in the moment of highest leverage.
"He's not a quality starter but that doesn't mean he can't give you a couple innings." That's not a chance I'm willing to take with 3 rested relievers in a must-win game. Penny faced the Rangers twice this year in the regular season. He faced 60 batters, and struck out TWO. If you can't strike those guys out, they will hurt you. Take a look at some of his head-to-head records against individual Rangers, even before game 6. His chances of holding them at bay were even worse than is suggested by his crappy season ERA.
I'll concede that I overreacted in calling for Leyland to be fired over that one decision. But it nevertheless was a horrendous, indefensible decision, and I'm perfectly justified in criticizing it.
Take a look at some of the comments made by media members who had no rooting interest. For instance, David Schoenfield of ESPN:
"Saving a guy for the seventh or eighth inning does you no good if you give up nine runs in the third. ... Unlike Leyland, [Washington] didn't mess around with anyone but his best pitchers.... Alexi Ogando came on for two innings."
Etc.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:48 pm
Poor decision by Jim Leyland. Kudos to this post for pointing it out in real time.
However, you don't fire a manager for bringing in the wrong reliever when down by six runs. There is so much more to managing than these kinds of tactical decisions.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:59 pm
The object is to win the game and the series. You can't win the series without winning the game, so Leyland should have gone with his best. Penny, pretty obviously, wasn't his best. The same could have been said of Girardi, bringing in a failing and tired Sabathia instead of the quality bull pen arms. The best managerial decisions are those where they try to put their players in positions where they can have success, or at the very least, do the least bit of damage. Realistically, you know Penny had a low probability of doing something-and there's really nothing to be gained by putting him in, so John A. is right. There's no logical purpose in using Penny at that moment in the game.